Stocki - The Jennifer Ryan Interview

JENNIFER RYANS: From your website I see you have a very successful youth seminar in Ireland called, "Disillusionment." The seminar relates to the postmodern youth culture unsatisfied with the "established church." In light of your success in that area, what advice would you give to those on the front lines of battle against some of the more murderous and lewd aspects of youth culture?

STOCKI: That group hasn't been meeting for a long time. Some are still disillusioned outside of the Church and some are at least re-engaged with Church even though they are disillusioned in many ways. As an entire group there is great frustration with the Church's relevance to the world we live in.

I am not sure I would define all that as any kind of "success". It was simply attempting to pastor many disillusioned folk through a frustrating time spiritually. They taught me as much as I helped them. We were just trying to stumble towards God helping each other, wherever we were on that journey. I guess that is Church.

I rarely see the murderous and lewd aspects of culture. Let us not kid ourselves that it is simply "youth" culture. Rock N Roll is fifty years old so there are young septuagenarians out there! I engage with it with a Biblical intensity which means I dismiss what is bad and exploit was is good. If we disciple people properly then they will have the resources to engage with the good and evil of culture. If we don't they will need a Christian ghetto. The former is useful to make us into those who can bring God's kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. The latter are simply fit for heaven and not the battle on earth. The hiding place is neither our vocation or useful for spiritual growth. We don't get to test the Word and see it lived out and we hide the light we should be under a Bushel. There is no point in the light shining in the light and it is simply the devil from hell that tells us to blame the dark for being dark. When the dark is dark the only thing to blame is the light for not shining.

Many will fear going out into culture. That is a theological issue and little short of blasphemy. Either we believe that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us as Paul says in Philippians or we don't and believe that if we live in the real world the devil will be greater than God and we will lose. It is about belief in God and faith that He will give us wisdom and courage to see culture through His Holy Spirit's lenses.

JR: As a former youth pastor for middle school teens, I've know first hand that most kids are inherently rebellious and disillusioned with the "system." Like bucking horses not yet broken, they rebel against being shaped and molded by authority. Anything averse to these authoritative systems easily attracts young hearts seeking affirmation; yet to be "broken" by God. Are you concerned about fostering divisions in the body of Christ by speaking to the side of youth that is disillusioned?

ST: I thought Christianity was all about bucking the system. That is what Jesus came to do - turn it all upside down. Maybe sometimes we need to exploit their rebellion rather than tame it! Channel it rather than break it. Some of the most chaining systems are within the Church. We need to break it free.

JR: Are you careful to delineate between the "established church as a religious system" and the "established church as temples of the Holy Spirit" or the "remnant" people of God? Are you teaching the difference? How?

ST: The Church is the people of God, the Body of Christ. That is what I teach. I am a fully committed member of an established and traditional Church. I am an ordained minister in The Presbyterian Church in Ireland, a Chaplain at Queens University Belfast and an elder in my local congregation. It has been my life and I cannot see a day when it will not be my life. My aim is to bring disillusioned young people and can I say now that I am engaging as much with 50 year olds who are equally disillusioned as the young people. Most of my friends are Christians and very committed followers of Jesus. Very few of them go to Church. Now my job where I am is to bring the two together. However, the Church has more changing to do than my disillusioned friends in most cases. They are more relevant to the world they live in and how Jesus engages with that world than most of the Churches who meet on a Sunday. As a result much of my job is trying to "break" (to use your word!) the Churches out of the system that put my brothers and sisters (in the Body of Christ but not in the Sunday morning service) into straight jackets that I reckon the devil fitted out!

JR: Do you feel that the thrust to embrace youth culture is superior to traditional Christianity to the extent that you publicly discredit the church at large? What are you doing to teach unification of God's people?

ST: Jesus was THE WORD BECOME FLESH TO LIVE FOR AWHILE AMONG US (John 1). That is the model for the Church; the Word in the heart of culture.

I do critique the Church and see it as my job as a preacher and teacher to apply the Bible to the way the Church is. God is a critic of his people from Genesis to Revelation. It is a Biblical mandate to speak into the Church's condition. Too often we hold it up as right and the culture as wrong. That is too simplistic and black and white. Actually it is simply wrong.

JR: How do you keep converts from idolizing their system of worship (i.e.: popular culture, secular music, relevancy, etc...), and lead them to Christ?

ST: In the same way I keep converts from idolising theology, new worship songs, liturgy, denominations, institutions, traditions and “this is the way it has always been done.” Warning them of the dangers of imbalance and sin.

JR: Explain your premise of "discovering the eternal truth in unlikely music." What inspired you to look at traditionally secular music in a positive way?

ST: I wasn't inspired to in any "Damascus Road" decision. My faith has always engaged with Culture. I am an obsessive at applying my Biblical faith to everything I hear, read or see. I'm the guy taking notes on whatever paper he finds in his pockets at the movies. I cannot watch without thinking deeply. So as I engaged I discovered loads of Biblical stuff in music, books and film that were not coming from Christian sources. I didn't go looking so much as with the eyes of my heart, soul and mind open I couldn't miss it. Whether it is Douglas Coupland novels or movies like Shawshank Redemption or Bruce Almighty or the music of Bruce Springsteen, Radiohead, Bob Dylan, David Gray or whoever...God spoke. Fact. I didn't close off the truth as I was challenged by it. I caressed and collided it with The Bible to help me follow Jesus.

JR: I am quoting your radio show excerpt "U2 Special," from your website which says, "The Church never has been to hot on its support or understanding of the Rock world." Why do you think this is?

The heresy of dualism - all that is in the Church is good and all that is not is bad. Coming from an idea that the spirit is good and the flesh is bad; nonsense like that. The awful unBiblical theology that the arts are a side show and unimportant. Systems. Legalism. Ignorance. Our loss of God's attributes like art and imagination. I mean the first thing we learn about God is that He is an artist. The first man in the Bible that we are told was filled with the Holy Spirit is an artist called Bezalel. You'd think we'd hear about him a lot. Most people have never heard of the man who God first states was filled with His Spirit. Bizarre Biblical teaching - eh!

JR: Do you have any ideas on how the church can balance a "non-hysterical critique of current youth culture" with it's responsibility to be a "watchman on the wall." How can we take a stand against atrocities while not alienating sinners?

ST: We need balance and Godlike discernment and wisdom. We need sensitivity. We need to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves not the other way around. We need to engage on the front line and not in the trenches. The best example of Christianity critiquing culture was U2 in the nineties when they put on stages across the world the meaninglessness, emptiness, absurdity of tv, celebrity culture and greedy capitalism. It was an astounding critique and the Church missed it!

JR: How do you combat issues of the malicious entertainment being marketed to the youth under your care, including increasingly violent lyrics, video games and movies?

ST: I think the Passion Of The Christ has reminded us that at the core of our faith their is the most X rated violent scenes ever lived out. We need to intelligently look at mindless violence and exploitative entertainment and the greatest dangers I feel which are that girls should be this shape with this complexion and this hair style wearing these labels. I am writing an article about this danger at the moment. I am righteously angered. The students I work with in Chaplaincy have never done most of what Eminem or Marilyn Manson sing about but almost all of the girls have broken hearts, souls, minds and bodies because of the message that goes out from even the safest pop girls. On the last two the CCM industry is as dangerous as the secular. Even they sell product with gorgeous girls on the cover of their albums. I know those who have been told to keep the songs evangelically loaded and then were pushed to use the sexy photo on the cover!

We need to speak out about that which breaks people up and have the courage to live out grace and peace and love are better alternatives. JR: In her latest video shown on MTV, Brittany Spears simulates drowning herself in the bathtub. How far should we go to build a bridge to the youth culture? Should we draw the line somewhere and if so, where?

Everyone's line is different. Most of what I watch (and it is not much Britney) I am watching to study art as much as be entertained. Blind entertainment is a dangerous thing. Intelligent engagement can be very healthy. First up we need to educate God's people how to watch and listen with a Biblical world view. If we do then they will be able to watch most things with a Biblical radar and I think they will then discern and decide what to watch once and discard and what to watch more than once. It is not about banning as much as discerning.

JR: Explain your premise of the spiritual vein in rock music that should be heeded. Explain your theory that God is speaking through unlikely prophets or modern day "Jeremiah's" such as Bono of U2.

ST: Bono is not an unlikely prophet. He is a likely one. His faith has informed his work from the beginning. I am not surprised when a Christian artist is prophetic. All the prophets were poetic and artistic. They were not at all theological. I am surprised when a Christian artist isn't! And most in the CCM world simply are not. That shocks me and indeed offends me. Try and find a CCM song that deals with the HIV/AIDS pandemic or apartheid or poverty or third world debt or the environment. They are few and far between. I find that simply shocking. Indeed dangerous. What is it teaching about Biblical discipleship. What is it teaching about the concerns of the prophets or Jesus.

Where I am a little surprised is when artists with no faith are the ones more like Amos and Jesus than those who claim to read their Bibles and follow Jesus. I was drawn to the obscene injustices of apartheid in South Africa by people like Peter Gabriel and Little Steven Van Zant. Where were the Christians. When Ethiopia needed people to feed the world it was a foul mouthed punk from Dublin called Bob Geldof who did something about it with Live Aid. He still campaigns for issues which I see as ultimately Christian but most Christians have little to do with. JR: Before I got saved in 1995, my favorite band was U2. I never got a gospel message from Achtung Baby. The local Christian radio station played a major role in my coming to Christ. It makes me wonder why Christian secular artists don't sing the simple gospel (i.e.: death, birth and resurrection) instead of hiding in ambiguity. Do you have any ideas?

ST: A very simplistic gospel there Jennifer. There are 66 books in the Bible and though Christs death and resurrection are a crucial part of it so are all the other issues that the Bible rages about. U2's work has never been ambiguous but many of the Christians who hear it have simply not been able to think enough to get the punch. But I know many who did get it and have either come to faith through their work or been transformed in their faith by the Christian core of their work.

And U2 have not been without death and resuurection. I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For was number 1 in the USA for 4 weeks and have the clearest theolgy on the cross in any song I have ever heard...
"You broke the bonds
You loosed the chains
Carried the cross
And my shame
You know I believe it"

Wow!

That you can miss the spirituality of Achtung Baby is surprising but there is a good book...Walk On; The Spiritual Journey of U2...(plug, plug) It was a more subtle piece of work but God is in their the entire time. It was another angle on the same Christian story. As I said already we need to educate people to engage with art. JR: If you can, I have a challenge: Please name one secular song that sings about purity and righteousness.

ST: There are literally thousands. I don't include artists like U2 and Johnny Cash and Switchfoot and other Christian artists involves in the real world who I cannot define as "secular". Here are twenty off the top of the head that I play regularly on my radio show (www.bbc.co.uk/ni/religion/rhythmandsoul). We need to be very careful with our definition of purity and righteousness...The purity and righteousness of USA and UK's current war in Iraq is pretty demonic. There are at least a few non Christians bringing a pure and righteous angle to the biggest threat to world peace the world has maybe ever known. And Christian music churns out worship songs which are all very well but not much relevance or prophetic purity and righteousness! Time to plug the new book...The Rock Cries Out...

Let The Truth Sting - David Gray
Birds Without Wings - David Gray
No Alrms and No Surprises - Radiohead
2=2 = 5 - Radiohead
Biko - Peter Gabriel
Jesus Gonna Be Here Soon - Tom Waits
Jesus Blood Never Failed Me Yet – Gavin Bryars with Tom Waits
Don't You Wanna Be There - Jackson Browne
Jerusalem - Steve Earle
Land Of Hope and Dreams - Bruce Springsteen
What Are You - David Gray
Strong hand - Emmylou Harris
Woodstock - Joni Mitchell
Love - Joni Mitchell
The Sire Of Sorrow (Job's Song) - Joni Mitchell
Is This The World We Created - Queen
Redemption Song - Bob Marley
Any Road - George Harrison
What Do You Want Me To Do Lord - Mike Scott
Full Force Gale - Van Morrison
The Cross - Prince
JR: Do you think Christian musicians are afraid to associate themselves with the church because it is not cool for record sales?

ST: I think too many Christians associate with the Church because it is cool enough to sell loads of albums. The stress on worship albums in the Christian subculture at present is a commercial venture from the industry to make money more than it is to help Church worship. Too many artists have sold their soul and art to sell worship albums when they could be making a real impact outside the ghetto! I could name a few bands (but won’t) whose Cds have arrived on my mat and I have opened them up only to be disappointed that they have gone the sales route and made a worship album rather than taking the Switchfoot, POD route to a wider world. They are much better poetically and in their Christian thinking than they are showing. But you have to sell about 100,000 copies to keep your recording contract so...

Those who don't associate with the Church are the brave and courageous ones who go out into the heat of battle to eye ball the devil and as they do they get criticism and judgemental gossip and lies and little support from their brother sand sisters in Christ. It is outrageous.

JR: In light of what Jesus said in John 15:19 when speaking of the world's hatred of His disciples, "If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." How do you reconcile this verse with embracing secular youth culture?

ST: I think John 17 v 15 "My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one" would be a better quote. The world that hated Jesus was actually the religious obsessed with legalistic righteousness. He had no problems with those in what we now define as the world. He embraced them most times literally whether prostitutes, lepers, tax collectors. He led them away from their sin by being in the middle of them engaging with them. No ghettos or safe alternatives. The Word made flesh in the midst. As Jesus also said "As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." JR: What is your opinion of Christians listening to secular music? Do you encourage youth to listen to lyrics that are not honoring to God? What are your parameters? ST: I would not encourage much Christian music these days. The good stuff is few and far between. Switchfoot are immense but are probably heading out into the secular industry. The last eight years has seen a dumbing down of spiritual content and engagement in CCM. I find it very sad. I can only imagine sales are more important than challenge. When I try to find CCM songs that deal with life’s struggles and pain and the world’s injustices for my radio show I am left with very little. I always have to turn back to either Christians working outside the industry or artists with no faith. Most CCM has become shallow, narrow and little help in engaging the Word of God with the world.

I would encourage them to engage the Word with the world and see where it caresses and collides. More reality, more humanity, more able to discern the state of the world and thus be of better influence within the culture. I know the feeling of falling in love and the pain of breaking up; I know what it is like to come to terms with a loved one’s death. I know the anger of watching babies die because they have no clean water. I know the rage that the three richest men in the world have more power over wealth than the sixty poorest countries. I know the anger of watching the USA break or thwart every environmental treaty that would help us save the world my Father created. I have been with the people who are dying of HIV/AIDS because western drug companies will not allow cheaper drugs to be made to save their lives in case their profits go down. CCM are not releasing songs about such issues so I have to point my listeners, readers and students to those who are. The truth is that my humanity overlaps with a great deal of the humanity of those who don’t share my faith. Yes my faith permeates every aspect of my life but I still share a lot of feelings with those who have not my faith. It is an unbelievable arrogance to think that I cannot relate to their lives.

JR: Would God really speak through Kurt Cobain, given his demise?

ST: I think Cobain is Ecclesiastes made flesh. He is the perfect conclusion to a life without God. Fame, wealth and whatever the modern world can offer is meaningless without God. What a scream from the heart of heaven to the culture of the day. In between the lines of the news cast in that sad day in April 94 the words "Meaningless, meaningless all is meaningless" echoed around the world. God speaks loud and clear in the heart of our culture whether the Church is relevant or not.

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